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Talk:Fontaine Must Go
''Perhaps it's time to give it a tug. "'Fontaine Must Go'" -- Not a great title for the actual text: '"Something must be done about Fontaine. While I was buying buildings and fish futures, he was cornering the market on genotypes and nucleotide sequences. Rapture is transforming before my eyes. The Great Chain is pulling away from me. Perhaps it's time to give it a tug." Very vague as so many of these Audio Diaries are. Why would Ryan decry the building of a new industry, particularly one he could now choose to compete in and outdo Fontaine. Does it infer that "The Creat Chain" has been moving backwards due to Fontaine's thuggery to 'corner the market' or using his illegal profits from the Smuggling to warp the way business is supposed to operate in Rapture? (money from one of the few things that IS a definite crime in Rapture, done at the expense of the whole City's safety...) Is Ryan simply saying that he now is going to go into the ADAM business to give Fontaine some proper competition ?? (We are never really told how early Ryan Industries started in on ADAM products or how early it was that Ryan made the above Audio Recording) "Rapture s transforming before my eyes." -- transforming obviously in a bad way to his philosophy. And into what? How far has Fontaine's tactics gone in a place allegedly set up with 'no laws' ( 'no laws' is a very stupid premise for any real society - but thats a whole seperate debate). Literally getting away with murder, extortion, Treason, poisoning the population, etc... - The text says nothing about what Ryan planned to do, but is the setup for 'evil' Ryan "nationalizing" Fontaine's ADAM company and alludes to him simply doing it to wipe out a business rival (and it is later NOT really emphasizes that Fontaine was a dangerous traitor -- his other crimes like virtually enslaving and terrorizing his employees are even more ignored) . You actually hear countering arguments that should have been spelled out from the first in Taking_the_Taint_Out_of_Fontaine in the DLC. And likewise actual reasons Fontaine Futuristsics was 'nationalized' which the majority of the populace would actually agree with. Testxyz (talk) 03:04, December 13, 2013 (UTC) Audio Diary vague as always. Consider that if Ryan Industries was already into the ADAM Market, perhaps Ryan had concentrated on specialized Medical Therapies as a product (we saw ads for TB cure, the Bends, Phossy Jaw...), then Fontaine suddenly(?) turns ADAM into a Consumer product, with greatly expanded sales and profits. This probably would be because Fontaine was using the 'orphaned' children as Slug-hosts, and was producing 20-30 times as much ADAM 'per source unit' (thus having a larger/cheaper supply of the critical substance and more money to do additional R&D). 21:30, October 25, 2015 (UTC) :Testxyz, are you pissed off about the title? :Audio Diary titles are almost always short snd pithy (think of it like the title to an email, the fewer words the better). The title makes Ryan's intent clear with the 3 word "Fontaine Must Go" instead of the much longer 8 word "Perhaps it's time to give it a tug." Furthermore, the subject of the diary is Fontaine, not The Great Chain, so the "it" in "Perhaps it's time to give it a tug" would make for a vague title. :Do you work as a defense attorney IRL or can you not hear the tone of Ryan's voice in the actual diary? I've never seen someone jump through so many flaming hoops to try and defend somone. No one is saying that Fontaine is anything less than a lowdown criminal or vicious scoundrel, but your repeated attempts to lionize Andrew Ryan or negate him of any missteps or wrongdoings comes off as willful ignorance or blind zealotry (to a character who's meant to represent a philosophical ideal as opposed to an actual man). :Unownshipper (talk) 07:16, October 29, 2015 (UTC) :- : :No its just more of the same vague contrivance to facilitate 'that evil ryan -its all his fault' manipulation to enable that lame game twist (which has you following the wishes of the lying terrorist who is made out as 'the good guy' - shovelled on thick - with nothing you could change if you thought otherwise, anyway). :Since the whole narrative is so spotty, WE have to fill in the details ourselves (havent YOU said that over and over?) and Ryan is no doubt pissed over reports that Fontaine isnt playing cricket by the rules (the thuggish business practices, the smuggling that Ryan KNOWS is being done by Fontaine, various stories about children being abused, businessmen/citizens threatened/murdered, addictive poison being sold to consumers, facilitating Parasitism , etc.. etc.. etc... :SO Ryan will do what he does best - Outcompete his opponents. Give the Chain a tug - give Fontaine a proper opponent in this new thing happening in Rapture - Give Rapture a Better Product. And then Fontaine WILL go - completely outdone once Ryan comes upto bat - and all Ryan WOULD need to do would be a 'tug' (Ryan talking to himself didnt say " I'll string that SOB Fontaine up with the Great Chain and tow him around behind by Limo-Sub to feed the fish !!!" . (Ryan was a good/extremely successful industrialist businessman and Fontaine was just a thug -completely out of Ryan's class ). And It was obvious that Ryan cant/didnt just have Fontaine shot like Fontaine in his place would have done in an instant (and as for flaming hoops, THAT is why it took so long for Ryan to finally get Fontaine - he did it LEGALLY - an arrest for Smuggling where Fontaine chose to resist Raptures Police Authorities - and in those days Cops didnt think twice about firing back at criminals (maybe you forgot about the dangerous/murderous Splicers Fontaine employed evident at 'the shootout' - mentioned by McDonagh I recall - hardly a kosher business practice that....dontcha think????) . :(As Ive indicated -- only later (in BaS) did they bother in-game to overtly express reasonings/justifications which the people in Rapture WOULD HAVE agreed with - They (Raptures Citizens) were people from that time AND NOT NOW -- and they would perfectly understand putting down a dangerous criminal abusing their freedoms.) The game spews it ignorance totally avoiding the fact that the Libertarian system installed there would have THE PEOPLE carry out and see Justice done and not just lay it all on Ryan for that lame-assed simpleton's plot. :Its your opinion that I hold Ryan blameless (or rather the way he is contrived to STUPIDLY act in this game -- again as a setup/required environment for the shooting part of the game). Ive certainly enumerated all the illogic and ignorant assumptions about how they (game writers) have things work - If you simply dismiss all those, then thats YOUR problem, not mine. When you look at what Ryan did - waiting for Rapture's people to handle the problem - mysteriously they never do - THEN when he actually acts, all we hear is detractors from biased sources (none from the majority of Rapture -- because THAT would blow the writers little contrived plotline out of the water) - "Ryan is Bad/Tyrant" is their anthem, when in the real world with people of THAT TIME Ryan acted as the Hero to the type of people that would have gone to Rapture. Similarly, they would want Atlas gone too for the same reasons. Sorry, but if you cant/wont understand what Im saying, I can hardly make it plainer. :So no, Im 'not 'pissed', Im just sad that by and large the storyline was a pathetic hack job, and only window dressing for a shooter-fest game (and the hype it got for allegedly being something special only shows how poor the whole gaming industry's products are). Its funny, because their latest drivel is magnitudes worse. : 13:55, October 29, 2015 (UTC) Well Testxyz, since you clearly hate Bioshock 1 so much, then why spend your time coming to a site that is dedicated to it? Don't you have something more constructive to do with your time? I mean if your purpose was to come here and start trouble, that is a VERY poor use of time and does not speak well for you. Why don;t you accept that people are flawed, do stupid things and act badly. And some people are worse, much worse than others. Historically people have done much the same stupid and evil things the characters in the Bioshock series have done and done them with '''entire nations. From Stalin to Pol Pot to Sadam. The fact that people don't act how you want/expect them to is not a failure on their part. The person you see in the mirror is failing to understand human nature and how different it can be. sm --Solarmech (talk) 20:15, October 29, 2015 (UTC) This is what like the tenth time you hurl the 'H' word my direction ? Is that the only way you can see things - people either 'love' something or 'hate' it ? And then followed by the usual pablum of the internetz infantz who cant tolerate anyone elses opinions. No my purpose was to come here to hear and express more depth about Bioshock. In any case, I don't accept Ryan being the one dimensional cutout character they turn him into BECAUSE he would HAVE TO be more than what they portray -- for him to have done what he did (and what the people of Rapture would have done) -- realized when one knows and appreciates more about the real world (which this game allegedly was supposed to employ as a Foil against the genetic 'Shock' aspect of the story) . It was sophomoric to have him that way in the game (again a cohesive/logical story WAS NOT the priority when you are kludging together a shooter game - they were a third of the way to showing us how interesting Rapture actually was - even from its ruins). Rapture didn't fall because of Ryan, it fell because Society (close to our own) fell apart because of the influence of a new element it didn't have the mechanisms to handle. The vagueness of much of the narrative (its like trying to find the Story from splotches of vomit on the Champs Elysees after the Nazi have marched through) leaves ALOT open to interpretation and 'reading between the lines'. Unfortunately that was more from limited budgets and poor storytelling (and the primacy of the games gunplay activity). The person in the mirror sees much more than you think and maybe sees further. Why you dont like that .... 00:34, October 30, 2015 (UTC)\\ - You say you don't hate BS1, but you posted this just a very short time ago. "So no, Im 'not 'pissed', Im just sad that by and large the storyline was a pathetic hack job, and only window dressing for a shooter-fest game (and the hype it got for allegedly being something special only shows how poor the whole gaming industry's products are)." If calling the story a pathetic hack job isn't hate, you really need to look up what the term "hate" means. As for the accusation that I don't tolerate other's opinions I would point out that the statement applies to you much more than it does me. I know Bioshock isn't perfect and there are problems with it. But I don't have to go bashing things like you do to "prove" anything to anyone. Testxyz, the problem with your attempt at "fill in the details" is that your attempt to do so does not match up with what is seen in game. In order for your proposed "details" to work, you have to ignore things we see in the game. You know Ryan being an unrepentant murder, a man who has his political enemies assassinated, who protects a serial killer, a tyrant that takes away most of the population's free will, a slaver who mind screws children so they will drink human blood. OR you can attempt to justify these crimes. Frankly, it's the same thing as trying to make Pol Pot look good. The thing you apparently fail to understand is that Ryan didn't build Rapture to be a Libertarian Paradise. Ryan built Rapture as his own private kingdom. He embraced the belief of libertarian policies only as long as they benefited HIM. When the "Great Chain" pulled away from him, when his position was threatened, he tossed aside his fiction of his belief in favor of a naked power grab. IF Ryan had truly believed in the Rapture Way (NOT taking Fontaine Futuristics for his own, NOT making Little Sisters, NOT being a tyrant) Atlas's revolt would never had had a chance. Hell, Ran could have made a very nice profit finding a cure for ADAM sickness. But a "nice" profit wasn't enough. Ryan wanted a HUGE profit and boosted the amount of ADAM he could get his hands on by kidnaping and slavery. ADAM was never the real problem in Rapture. It was power corrupts. What Ryan did and how he acted was not that far out of line with what the First Gilded Age Robber Barons did and that's the fact. You can make all excuses you want, jump through a million hoops and convince yourself the Sun orbits the Earth. But you can't change the fact that the biggest difference between Ryan and Fontaine was how they spelled their names. sm --Solarmech (talk) 15:35, October 30, 2015 (UTC) - Yes your opinions must be the only correct ones . Sorry, no. 'Hate' - so to see problems is to hate ? To wish something was better is to 'hate' ?? To criticise is to 'hate' ? Cant help you here. Filling in details - whats seen in the game.... The utter Vagueness of so much of it is all there to see . So your reasoning cant really work here. You give examples based on a tiny view through a keyhole into a dark room. I can demolish every attempted example (and have repeatedly) you gave -- showing that you CANT know any such with any certainty other than your belief in the few obviously biased vignettes you see in-game. Bioshock was supposed to be a reflection of real life (to be relevant/meaningful), and 'real life' works certain ways, and when the game shows things working illogically then I have a problem with that (and I call it a hack job/illogical/poor/lazy) Your statements about Ryan dont hold up logically. Go back and play the game again and pay attention and try to take a bigger view than the 'setup' that was pushed at you to manipulate you into your pawnship in the crude plot. Maybe you this time might realize that Ryan is shown bending over backwards to stick to his Philosophy and gets forced to act to stop the destruction of the Better World he built, not just for himself, but for humanity. Come to think of it, you might want to review the REAL history of the world where people had to take strong actions to defend their ideals and preserve their society. YOU can make all the excuses YOU want and claim YOUR opinions are the only corrects ones, but that doesnt make them correct (I offer reason and understanding and interpretations which differ with such narrow little viewpoints on my side of the balance). 01:54, November 1, 2015 (UTC)